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Author Topic: "People who can’t find jobs in the U.S. and Europe come to China..." -not really  (Read 6132 times)

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"People who can’t find jobs in

the U.S. and Europe come to China..."

- not really!

  Some Chinese and non-Chinese believe in the statement that "People who can’t find jobs in the U.S. and Europe come to China...". Is that true? Not really.

 1. The job or/and the money aren't everything in this life. If you're not a slave of the greedy, capitalistic consumerism, you can't think/feel that the money or/and job are everything ("supreme value") in your life and in the people's life!
 2. Some people like me will be glad and happy to have LESS MONEY AND NOT SOME SPECIAL JOB, BUT MORE:

- Chinese culture (for example it's my right to like more the Chinese dishes or Chinese music than European or American music)
- Chinese Socialism (it's also my right to prefer socialism, not capitalism)
- Chinese nature (there are natural things in China, which can't see in Europe or USA)
- Chinese history (for example my forefathers are coming from the nowadays North-West China and it's my right to feel China as my ancient Motherland/Fatherland)
- Chinese safety (no guns, not high crime rate, etc.)
  Conclusion: Culture, Socialism, nature, history memories/knowledge and safety may be much stronger motivators than job/money.
A fan of science, philosophy and so on. :)


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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2012, 01:41:52 AM »
  More about the topic and some other topics from a discussion with a pro-capitalist and probably an anti-China person (my answers are in green):

"Noone is a slave to capitalism."

 I meant the capitalistic consumerism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism)

"Individual autonomy is what capitalism is all about."

 In the ideal capitalism only. But there are a lot of crony capitalisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism) around the world and the men there are not so autonomous to develop their own real good free business.

"Slavery is the result of authoritarianism NOT capitalism."

  Not only. For example - remember the slavery in the South States and the Swedish slavery - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_slave_trade

"Consumerism is a necessary and favorable bi-product of capitalism, people like to buy nice things and services, but greed is not."

 Well said. I do agree. What I meant is that some greedy consumers think people in China can come just because of the money and/or job. But I am not here, because of this - for me the culture, history and other non-material things matters.

"Capitalism allows for the unrestrained pursuit of authenticity and individualism."

  Depends WHO YOU ARE in the capitalism. If you're just a poorer worker who can hardly even pay his/her food and you're the owner of some bank, you'll be allowed to show your individualism in very different levels. What individualism you can show if you're even not able to buy clothes on your taste or to travel to another city? You are going to be just a semi-robot, who is working just to keep alive.
 I saw many pity people workers in factories, their owners are paying them low salaries and in the same time the workers have to work up to 12 hours. This is what we call EXPLOITATION, pure capitalistic exploitation.  The worker produce for you goods for 10 dollars, but you give him only 1 dollar and the country takes from him, for example, 0.20 for taxes...So what? Double exploitation - first from the capitalist, second - from the country. What individualism? Human robotisation. This is the classic face of the capitalism - only the capitalists are okay, the workers - not okay at all.

"Authoritarianism is all about control over a given population."

 And many capitalists are also authorians. These 2 are not antonims. For example Mussolini was ruling a capitalistic and authoritarian Italy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mussolinihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mussolini

"What you are describing is a 'preference' not a 'right'.
A right would be to eat the food you prefer or to listen to the music you prefer."

 Depends of the description of the words and of the concrete law. It's just good that you understand what I mean. My main idea is that people shouldn't think that all the foreigners in China are here, just because of the "high salary" or because "they can't do anything else in their "great" countries"...

"Socialism/Communism/Communalism/Collectivism is a myth or more accurately a lie."

  Lie is when someone knows that something is not true, but makes you believe that it is true. I don't think that Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc. wanted to lie us.
 The pure capitalism, the ideal capitalism is also a big myth. The problem is that the people are not so develop to build ideal societies. But we hope that someday it may happen.

"China practices what is commonly referred to as 'authoritarian capitalism'; phony capitalism.
China is an authoritarian state made up of smaller fiefdoms throughout the country."

  You can say this about every big country like USA, Russia, etc. But it is hard to prove this statement. I disagree. China got different presidents, not only one (as it is in the Authorian countries), there is People's congress (the congressmen are elected from the people)...it's far away from the authoritarian state. Of course, some propagandists and/or not well educated about the Chinese situation may wish you to think in this way.

"How do you know there is no high crime rate?"

 I live here for years and I can feel it. Also I have internet and I can read online some statistics - look at this one, for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
 Why it is so hard to believe, that in China one can live safer than in some Western countries?!
 You don't trust Chinese media? Well, according to the non-Chinese the situation is the same -- noone will say that the crime rate in China is high. Can you imagine to live in a country like China:

-no skinheads (neo-nazis)
-no gypsy gangsters
-no guns on the street
-not so many hooligans
...In the same time you can see these problems in some European countries. And what then? Go to live first in those countries, then come in China, and then judge by yourself.

"Is there no pursuit of Chinese currency by individuals in China?"

 I don't understand the question. Sorry.

"What exactly are the Chinese motivated to do by your list that would otherwise be stymied by capitalism?"

 There are different people in China. It's their free choice. What I meant is:

-I and some other foreigners am/are not here, because of the money/job, but because of the:

-amazing Chinese nature
-great culture
-nice food
-etc. mostly non-money, non-job things.
  Not everything is job and/or money. And not everyone is happy to live in the US or in Europe!
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The next part of the dialog
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2012, 02:56:04 PM »

The next part of the dialog

"Noone can be a slave to consumerism.
Addicted?  Sure, like anything."

It is a kind of self-enslavement.

"Consumerism is a choice."

 And not only. Because if 24/7 the TV, Internet websites, radio, etc. brain-washing you to buy this and that, it's not so free. It's a sort of behavior modeling from the early age. And when the kid grow up, it is not sure is he/she is able to choose something different, to overcome the cosumeristic models and thinking.

"Authoritarians are those who judge the worthiness of what others do with their wealth and how they live their lives.
Demonizing consumerism is an example of that."

  Hehe, the same you can say about the pedophilia. And of course if someone think that a person can live in China just because of the job/money it's not a good thinking. Because it focus only of the consumerism and miss:

-political believes
-cultural preferences
-historical consciousness

  This is the "demon of Mammon" - mammonism ("Everything is money; you can't be in China, if you can make more money in Europe!" SHAME!!!)

"Consumerism is a result of prosperity."

  Then how you can explain the philosophy of these who prefer to be non-cosumerists, but they're still prosperial? There are many results of the prosperity. I am a philosopher and I know it, I learned it:

One and the same reason/cause can causes many and different results.

" 'Crony capitalism' is NOT capitalism, it is a perversion of capitalism."

  This is the fundamental question - mostly you can see the perversions of the systems, because most of the people are still not developed enough. As a kind of mammals, very similar to the apes, the people is not  very able to make the ideal politics.

"'Crony capitalism' is the Chinese model"

 No, it is Socialism with Chinese characteristics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_characteristics

"authoritarian capitalism"

 I think this, in its pure phenomenon is in North Korea, which according to my discovery is a State-capitalist monarchy of Korea" (SCMK) - here you may read all my discovery: http://www.seo-forum-seo-luntan.com/social-network-seo-social-network/dprk-in-fact-is-scmk/?wap2

"Crony capitalism is a term describing an economy in which success in business depends on close relationships between business people and government officials.  ~Wikipedia[/blockquote] Sounds like China to me."

  Oh, you have no idea how close this sounds to some of the new capitalistic countries in East Europe  ;D

"In addition to the force of arms, authoritarians must be able to claim legitimacy.
Authoritarians needs an adversary, real or created.
Large corporations are used for that purpose, but only rhetorically.
In truth, it is no secret that they are in bed together."

  Without concrete proves I can't comment it. Even if it is so, it doesn't mean that people should think that I and some like me are in China, just because of the money/job. I am against that primitive, money/consumeristic oriented thinking, which neglect the spiritual/mind/cultural things as:

-political system


"The government has the force of arms not the corporations.
The government writes the laws and the regulations not the corporations.
Governments can and do, nationalize businesses, outlaw businesses, breakup businesses.
Governments can and do, create businesses, fund businesses, promote businesses."

  Yes, on theory is just so. BUT how about the lobbies? As I know in many countries there are strong lobists and they're able to influence the politics. This is another problem.

"Governments create crony capitalism to consolidate their power.
They create barriers of entry through the use of regulation to protect their cronies.
They give financial support from the taxpayers to protect their cronies.
Without these protections from government capitalism would thrive and lives of the masses would improve."

  Sounds very reasonable, some people told me the same about some countries. Me personally - if I have to choose between the crony capitalism and the real liberal/free capitalism, I should choose the second one, because there the freedom and the potential of development of the ordinary person is bigger, but still not the perfect one, because for the rich is easy to create and for poor - not easy and they live in lack of social security and danger. Much better is the socialistic/communistic way, for example in Israel - the Kibbutzes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibutz . There all kids will have almost equal chance to get something in their life, not like in the capitalism:

A (a rich boy): I will eat 3 times per day and I will go to the beach, because my father is a manager.

B (poor boy): I will eat only 1 per day and I will stay only at home, because my father is a servant of the manager, of the company owner and of the government.

  The poor people in the capitalistic societies are under double/tripple dependance - you see:

 if you're rich, you must obey only to your government and you even can be a part of this government, because when you're rich you can build a good political party, to pay for ads (brain-washing) on TV, radio, internet. And you will be FREE at 100% or 90%
 But if you're poor in the capitalism and you can't even have a credit from a bank, then:

-obey the country
-obey your company boss
-obey your manager

  Got it?

"What are the origins of slavery and prison labor?
Certainly not capitalism."

  The capitalism makes neo-slavery. A new kind of enslaving of the poor people. I pointed up there the double/tripple dependance of the poor people. The amount of freedom in the capitalism depends of the amount of your money mostly.

"Forced labor is not the fault of capitalism, it is in fact anti-capitalistic."

  It's not so anti-capitalistic, because when you're poor and have no money even to pay a domain and hosting,  you should OBEY AND SERVE to some small, middle or big capitalist. The poverty enforces you, so de facto it is a capitalistic phenomenon as well.

"I do not think there are many people at all from countries where there are 'greedy consumers???" (ie: prosperous countries) that feel that moving to China is a path to greater wealth and job security."

  What I meant is that there are some Chinese guys who think that only a stupid looser is coming to China, if he/she can find good money and job in USA/Europe. I am talking about the Chinese consumerist and/or not well educated people, who miss the point about "Not everything is money! There is: culture, safety, history, etc."
 And about the rich countries - it's also possible - I met many people offline and online from those countries, who also don't understand why I will prefer to be poorer in China, than richer in Russia or Poland, for example. They also don't understand the cultural/spiritual part of the man's choice.

"I would think that one would only want to live in China for other reasons like those that you list."

 Because you are educated above the average. But also there were some Westerners like this:
"Dude, what the f*ck?! In China forever?! Are you crazy?"
or some Chinese like this:
"If you're so clever, why you don't work in your country or in Canada, USA, Australia...bla-bla-bla, there you can have more money!"

  I hate this elementary thinking. And you may have some pro-consumeristic and anti-Chinese opinions, but you're educated or very educated man, and of course you can see the cultural/political/historical/spiritual part of the entity much better than those guys.

 I will continue later, because now I am busy.
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2012, 04:54:04 PM »


 It's such a pleasure to discuss with this person.  8)

 "Capitalism and constitutional republicanism [small 'r'] create an environment where anyone, regardless of their background can improve their circumstances. "

  Theory. Practice: My father left me 20 000 000 dolars. Your father left you debts, because he wasn't able to pay his pills. My backgraund is 20 000 000 dollars, your is -10 000 dollars. Who will improve the circumstances better? Me, who will invest in 100 companies and will probably make 200 000 000 dollars in a couple of years or you, who even can go to the jail, because you're not able to deal with your debts?
 In the capitalism only the rich people are well. If you're poor, you can't be well, if you haven't some really genial ideas, i.e. one of a million, like the FB owner. In most of the cases a common worker is living as a workers and ends up as a worker. Don't believe in the "American dream stories" so much.

"Who is more likely to better their circumstances, a laborer in China or a laborer in the United States?"

 I think it should be the worker in China, because here, for example, the crime rate is not so high as in the US and the worker here has more chances to be alive, not dead. But, of course, there are some advantages in the US, as well: developed country (not still developing as PRC), not so many people (a few times less than China), etc.

"Such is the case in authoritarian states like China, the DPRK and Cuba."

 I don't think so. Because here I can see more people are able to buy food and clothes, because they're more cheap than the onese in some other countries, and the salaries are almost the same high/low. I'll give you an example:
here the average salary is, for example, 400 USD and in an East European capitalistic country the salary is also the same or even less. Here a T-shirt costs, for example, 1.5 USD, but there - 15 USD. So, who is more able to buy clothes? Chinese or those East Europeans who even can't eat 3 times per day and can't afford to pay their electricity?! I was there (in East Europe), now I am here (in PRC), believe me - here I didn't saw someone to worry can he/she eat 3 times per day and/or can he/she have enough money to pay the electricity bill in the end of the month.
 And I still think that PRC is not an authoritatian country - DPRK and Cuba are, because they're family countries, like monarchies (Kim and Castro dynasties) and still I don't think that people there live so bad as the Western medias teach the locals.

 "But then again, they're peaceful places, with beautiful landscapes and glorious histories.
What else would one need?"

And not only. For example you know many white guys like Latino women (as Cubans) or Asians (as Chinese and Koreans). For a white guy is more easy to find Latino/Asian gf/wife if he is there, not if he is in his country. And of course the choice is bigger if around you are million of Chinese females, right?
 Another example - the food. Here you can eat Chinese food more and cheaper, than in your local Western-Chinese restaurant.
 There are a lot of benefits being in a country you like.
 What I need? I don't need to be a president of China or to be in the politics of China. That's why I feel happy with what I got - more safety, more culture, cure Asian female, tasty food, interesting Chinese medicines...Why I should be unhappy?! Also as a socialist I am glad that the leading party here is a socialistic one, not some Islamistic or Nationalistic. If you need to be a president of Cuba or minister of the foreign affairs, you may feel unhappy in Cuba, but if you just need the warm Tropical/Sub-Tropical weather, beaches, pretty Cuban females, Cuban food, Cuban music...what should make you unhappy?! That you have no chance to be a Cuban president? Well, your chance in Cuba may be around 0.00%, but for a common Australian citizen, for example, the chance is like, for example, 0.04%. It means PRACTICALLY the same. Only the theory is different.

Where exactly did you see this forced labor?"

 As I said this is the poverty. If you're poor, it's very difficult to become a rich person. You'll be a servant of the rich guys or servant of the country. And if you're poor it will be difficult for you to pay your education, health care...you're not equal to the rich guys - they can spend 1% of their income and to pay the goods and services that you will spend, for example, 50% of your income or even 300%.
 In the kingdom of the Capital, the capital possessors are the ones who're well. No capital = no goods and services (if there is no some good social politics to support the poor people).

"Many people (like me) often work over 12 hours a day."

 Do you think that it is NORMAL and HEALTHY? You need 8 hours for sleep. As we know it is the healthy demand of the body for health. So 12-8 = 4. 4 (FOUR!) hours left for:
-bath (20 minutes)
-eat at least once per day (20 minutes)
-spend some time with your family (at least 1 hour)
-transportation (shopping, back to work, etc. - 20 minutes on average)

 And you left only 2 hours for your own development:
-reading at least some news/book

 Are these 2 hours enough? And do you think you'll be in a normal phisical and psychological condition to spend them as you wish?

"In an authoritarian system the workers would have to choose between being punished or relenting in their demands."

 Haha, not at all. Do you know how many workers in factories or teachers are punished just because the boss don't like them? As I said in the Capitalism you're under double or tripple pressure and dependance. You're almost Mr. Nobody. The last "element" of the "social machine."

"Suppose the owner only ends up with $1 after expenses and taxes, does that make the $1 that was paid to the worker fair?"

 And who is so naive to believe, that the owner is working only for 1% or 10% profit? Most of the owners (capitalists) are earning much more. How do I know it?

-They have expensive cars
-They have at 3-4-5 "lunches" per 24 hours
-They can afford vacations far far away (only the plane ticket is like 2-3-4-5 workers salaries).
 1% profit may have some small/little capitalist, but the middle and large class? WOW, MAN!
 So, you better don't listen what they speak, you see what they buy, wear, eat, drink, where travel...

"they forget about the vast majority of businesses that fail."

 I don't. I know they fail and then - worker again or even homeless. The "capitalistic shark" (Capitalistic system) is eating not only poor people, but also non-successful capitalists. It's clear and I know it very well.

"Only to be rewarded by insults by people that were unwilling or unable to leverage their talents, to work hard and to take the risks that are required to be successful."

 Oh, look, I don't insult anybody personally. And also I want to add this:
-not every poor man is talanted.
-not every talanted poor man is able to get bank credit to develop his/her ideas
-not every good idea is working (there are many surprises in the capitalistic hell)
-not every hard working poor man can get rich - some salaries are enough only to eat once per day and to pay some electricity, water and socks (sometimes even not enoght for shoes). No way for savings. If you save - the inflation (which is a good friend of the capitalism) will eat your savings.
-not every risk is good to take.
-the success in a capitalistic society depends mainly of the MONEY. Money - first. If you have money, then even some not-that-great idea may bring you money back. Marx wrote it: "money - goods - money'". But if you're poor, even the greatest idea is not a garancy that you will be successful - some rich people can steal your idea, or you can try to search "business angels" all your life and nothing...

 The 3rd part is coming soon...
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The last part for today
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2012, 06:50:49 PM »

The last part for today

"Authoritarians use these very human flaws of jealousy and envy to pry away the innate desire to be free in exchange for a comfortable bed in a cage."

  Or they just create fairy tales about how a man with 30 000 000 dollars and a man full of debts are with the same chance to be healthy, wealthy, successful...isn't it?

"What is relevant more than the numbers is freedom and liberty."


For example...Because if there are RAP-guys shooting you on the street or there is cancer or lack of culture...what if you're free?
 And also how exactly free you're? This is the question. Sometimes the so called "freedom" is just an illusion. A simple example: you're free to travel abroad, BUT you can't pay even 40% of the bus/plane ticket. So what is this freedom? It's just a de jure, not de facto freedom. No money - no real/full freedom in the capitalism, you know it. Money - first. This is the rule. Without money you even can't travel in the public bus, right? The same in the politics - for example you have the right to create a political party. OK. And then? If your salary is only 5 dollars per day, how you will support it - posters, Tv time/ads, online and offline propaganda?! No money - no party. This is the difference between the theory (de jure) and the reality/practice (de facto).

"Where in the world are people given the most freedom to protest and strike and to speak freely?"
 The question is where in the world people don't have to do it, because there is/will be nothing to protest, strike and speak agains. Also the question is - why in these free to protest-strike-speak countries the policemen still beat, use sprays, etc. Again - is it only a theoretical freedom or practical, real freedom.

"Where in the world are people more able to express their religious, political and philosophical beliefs?"

  By the way it's not all good - because I know in many of these countries are growing up DANGEROUS SECTS - do you remember David Koresh - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh or Shoko Asahara - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asahara ?
 Hitler also was free to get to power, but today the Nazism is forbidden in many "free countries" (and this is good, in fact!) So, don't be a victim of the idea that the absolute freedom is something very good. The bad things like these sects should be banned. We don't need a freedom for the evel religiouns, politics and philosophies. (I am a philosopher, but I know that some philosophies are evil, too.)

"Exploitation is coercion by force or punishment."

 Or just of poverty. If you're poor and you have no credit to start own business, you'll be a neo-slave to some rich guy all your life, probably. When a cat is hungry it will come to you by itself, you don't need to force it. The people are the same - when they're hungry, they'll find you by their "free will" (or they'll try to kill you, if they're criminals or ultra-revolutioners, but this is not the point, I just mention it as a possibility for some minority of people, who are a kind of insane or really insane).

"If a worker has the freedom to decide to work for $1 instead of 50¢ or $2.00, for whatever reason, then it is inappropriate to accuse the owner of exploitation, even if the employer profits exponentially."

  And how about there is only one factory around and you have no money to move in another place? Or how about if the salaries are almost the same? 1 or 2 dollars - it's almost the same. They'll be all poor. The difference is not so powerful to change the workers' future. I know this differences - for example the person A can eat bread and onion. And the person B can add a little butter on the bread. And then they think - "WOW, the B is so well paid, man! He can eat butter almost every day!"...
Can you imagine there are some kids in some East European countries that are happy and feel "special" if they can have a can of Coca Cola per week? And these are kids of people who worked hard all their life, without big credits and fancy life like the Greeks. And all this is the result of the killed socialism and the new "good capitalism". I also know guys working online almost 12 hours daily and then they're proud of their "big earning" (they can buy new shoes after 2 months...LOL!!!).
 So, you understand the nostalgy of many people from the ex-socialist countries like Russia, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Roumania, Macedonia, etc., when they was much richer and equal.

"The question is, "What is the barrier that prevents the worker from emulating the employer and building his/her own business?""

  If I have only money to buy some bread and to pay my electricity I can't emulate the employer, because there is no bank to give me credit. BUT if I have 1 000 000 dollars I can not only emulate the employer, but also to be richer than him, because I am a sort of educated philosopher with many hobbies like psychology, economics, online business. The answer is NO CAPITAL, DEAR FELLOW. No capital = no possibilities.  Believe me - I have at least 10 good ideas that may bring me back 100-200% revenue, but I have no the primary capital to start. I know there are some business angels, but I can't trust that all of them will keep my secret - let's say I have a great idea about a NEW CARBONATED DRINK. And what if I don't have the expensive patent and not enough money for international court/justice?

"If the barrier to entry is insurmountable, then what is the reason?"

 The reason is the lack of the primary capital. For example you're a smart guy and you know that in the country X and the town Y there is NO hamburger restaurant, but the locals are crazy about hamburgers and they can afford to buy at least 1 hamburger per day. You can sell at least 10 000 to 20 000 hamburgers daily. BUT you have no money to:

-rent a place
-to pay taxes for registration
-to pay the permissions
-to pay the first goods - bread, meat, vegetables
-to pay for tables, chairs...

 And then your great idea is a dead-born. And may be 40 years later some rich man will find where is this country X and town Y and he will earn 10 000 - 20 000 dollars per day just from selling hamburgers.

"With capitalism the "To each" and the "From Each" is decided by the people themselves and market forces."

 It's not like this. Because most of the people want more salary, but the owner don't think so! :) And the market forces are like predators. You may be a good, nice, clever man, but if you're poor the market force will eat you/destroy you. The market force is not a brain, it's almost like a tornado, it's not so predictable - you know Greece now, right? Because of Greece so many innocent people suffer. Don't trust the market forces at all. Only the planned and well-planned life are able to grant you something more human, not natural (predator) living.

"Is this not the face of capitalism?" (about the FB owner)
 The owner of FB is an exception. How many Americans are like him? 10-20-30?...But USA is around 313,686,000 !!! And let me see the biography of this guy...

"Zuckerberg was born in 1984 in White Plains, New York. He is the son of Karen (née Kempner), a psychiatrist, and Edward Zuckerberg, a dentist." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg#Early_years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License

 Not bad! Psychiatrist + dentist. As I know they're well paid in the USA. And what if this person was born in India, in some village without electricity or was just a son of an Aleutian fisherman? So, as you can see - the primary capital is important -then the kid may go to study, to create...
And still, most of the people, even with university degree are not able to build such good business. Even me (a person, who can speak a few foreign languages, who is with a Master's degree in Philosophy, etc.) - my greatest online success till today was to create an unique website, which I sold for 100 American dollars !!! Can you imagine how about the people who even have no electricity and computers? No money = no success in the capitalistic reality. Money - first.

"Perhaps we should take a poll to see how many feel they have been made into human robots."

 The feeling is not enough. Some people don't feel correctly. Marx and Engels were teaching about the awareness worker. These workers who have the awareness of what they exactly are, what are their interests.
 And yes - I met many people, who are not happy to work so long. Also there was a good Charlie Chaplins movie about it - in the factory, may be you know it -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Times_%28film%29 . Very good movie showing the robotisation and the alienation of man from labor.

"Everything you are foisting on capitalism are examples of authoritarianism and are far more prominent under authoritarian regimes."

  Everywhere the capitalism makes the poor people more poorer and the rich people (sometimes) more richer. Because if you're rich - you can INVEST. If you're poor - you can only struggle for existence. You know the ABBA's song "Money, money, money..."

"In a capitalist society the mean nasty heartless capitalist can fail."

 Can and can not. Just a possibility. And as much he/she is a monopolist with a good lobby, as much he/she is building an empire. Then his/her kids are rich and powerful just because they're born in this (rich one) family, not in that (poor one) family.

"Comparing decisions made by students in a Kindergarten class, or an office pool to international politics is blatantly absurd."

 Not everytime. I learned Philosophical anthropology and I know that there are some common things between the young and the adult person. Here is an example: a strong bad boy goes to hit a girl and take her candy. AND a strong bad king beat the weak small country to enslave it. VERY SIMILAR, no matter that the 1st one is just a kid act, the 2nd one is a political-military act.

"Your example Mussolini is not an example of capitalism.
Mussolini was an authoritarian."

  This is what I mean - the authoritarians may be capitalists, too. Not feudal, not communists, but CAPITALISTS. And if you don't like this Mussolini example, you may see many others around the world - they're not socialists (nowadays the socialists are only China, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cuba). The rest are capitalists, right? And can you say that all of them are non-authoritarians? Of course not.

"Not really.
What you think cannot be controlled by others.
Expressing and sharing those opinions can."

 As I said - depends of the description/understanding/convection about what is "right", what is "preference". The most important is that you understood me. The main question here is that I don't want some people to think that I am in China, because of the money/job. I'm not just a pig. I have cultural/spiritual/political needs and that's why I am here. And I post this in some online communities with the hope that more and more people will learn that not every foreigner in China thinks only about the money and the job.

"No need to worry.
Very few people think that."

 The problem is that many Chinese think that and this is not good...I worry about it. I worry about this, too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Rui  This famous journalist said that "People who can’t find jobs in the U.S. and Europe come to China to grab our money, engage in human trafficking and spread deceitful lies to encourage emigration." :o :o :o :o :o :o :o and many Chinese are ready to believe him, many Chinese think so EVEN BEFORE HE WROTE IT! So, I am here to explain, that not every foreigner is such a big fan of the Western money and jobs. Some of us prefer less money, but more China.
A fan of science, philosophy and so on. :)


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less money, but more China
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2012, 07:08:26 PM »

less money, but more China

I'm so good at SEO!


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More and more...
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2012, 12:41:59 AM »

More and more

  At first I want to say, that I am not a Chinese citizen and I can't vote here. I wish I could have a Chinese citizenship, but I still can't apply about it, because I still do not have complete all the requirements (for example to be married more than 5 years to one and the same wife). That's why I didn't learn a lot about the Chinese elections and the Chinese congress. I just know that here the president is not one and the same and that the new president is not the son of the ex-president (as in North Korea) or the brother of the president (as in Cuba). That's why it is not authoritarian. Re-think again what is the real Authoritarian country. In my point of view if there is more than one person or one family to rule a country, it is not Authoritarian.

 "With that in mind, which do you believe is historically most responsible for repression in the world, authoritarianism or capitalism?"
 The problem is that the capitalism also may be authoritarian. Authoritarianism is not a political-economic system. It's just a way of power. Authoritarianism may occur in the Feudal states many years ago or in some capitalistic ones nowadays. That's why I do not mix these 2 different things. The capitalistic states are very different, so the "repression" (I don't know what kind of repression you mean, but it is not so important) have to be different -- for instance, as many people said, the Scandinavian capitalism (Sweden, Norway, Iceland, etc.) is not so bad as the one in the Americas. So it depends of the capitalism -- if you compare the capitalistic India or Nepal and the capitalistic Holland or Iceland -- the picture is very different (I don't mean only the "repression").

"With that said, it could be the case that Marx, Engels, Lenin were so ignorant of basic human behavior that they could not envision that the reforms they sought would lead to the authoritarian, corrupt and murderous regimes that have resulted in their names."

  The same ignorance as the Jesus' one. He has no idea how bloody will be the Christianity after him. So, my answer is - "yes, in this field (NOT IN ALL THE FIELDS!) these genius people -- Marx, Engels and Lenin - were a kind of ignorant, because they overestimated the possible, future results.
 As I wrote before in an essay AGAINST the revolutions before - "It's not a good idea to fight or/and die for some revolution, BECAUSE later the people may make a counterrevolution; people may make some revisionism and you are fighting or/and dying for nothing!"... IN FACT MARX SAID SOMETHING GOOD ABOUT IT: "What is certain to me is [that, if this is Marxism, then] I myself am not [a] Marxist" (in a letter to Engels, Marx later accused Guesde of being a "Bakuninist")." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License
 So as you can see even the contemporaries of Marx were able to change, to revision the Marxism. How we/he can expect that in the future everything will be okay? The same - Jesus and everyone else, who is believing that his/her theory will be unchangeable and the world will be stable. It's possible, but it's not that possible. The possibility is not that big as far as the mankind is a part of the fauna (an animal with semi-well developed brain and a predator - we still have canine tooth and we kill animals and eat their meat, i.e. predators).


 "Now explain away the fact that current and past authoritarian regimes and subversives have made, and make, the same claims of creating a Utopian society even though history and current regimes demonstrate otherwise."

  It's the same as in some "dream-lands", I think - for example some people there voted for party A and this party spent their taxes to make war in some "far-far away" country for...(may be you know better what far). Then the people hope that party B will stop the wars and vote for the party B, but - noooo...war again! Later the next elections - again party A or the same - party B will get the power. And these voters still believe that it is a democratic choice, that it's nothing about the power of the capital, etc. Dreamers...So, I suppose here is something similar - there are a lot of fails building the socialism in the world, but "I have a dream" and I dream about how someday the human evolution + the good political will of the people may create the Socialism (at least). And I am not talking about blood, terror and revolutions, I am talking about the peaceful EVOLUTION, i.e. I like the English way - they call it Fabianism (it's a kind of evolutional socialism).

 "Utopian society"

 It's not utopian at all. Everything is about the good will. Imagine that there is a micro-society - you and your brother on an lonely island. Your brother produces 2 coconuts per day and you produce 5 liters of mineral water. Then you and he IF YOU WISH, IF THERE IS WILL, may share the coconuts and the water. If not - you can drink only your water, he - the coconuts; or you can trade like "give me one coconut and I will give you 2 liters of water"...you also may enslave your brother and to use all his coconuts, until he die, etc. EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE:

-slavery (you use his labour and do not give him anything and he's dead)
-isolationism (you don't deal with your brother)
-communism (no matter how much and what you and he produce - the product will be shared like in a brotherhood - 50/50)
-liberal capitalism (bargain; haggle -- "1 coconut costs 5 liter of water!", "What the heck?! It's only 1 liter of water, you greedy b. (baby ;) )!"...)

"Name a nation, past or present where collectivism is practiced and all property is/was mutually owned."

  There are some communities in Israel, as I pointed already - the Kibutzes in Israel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibutz . Some Chinese told me that here/in China/ some Chinese villages are using the same way.
 All these example shows that the collectivism is practically possible. The problem is that not so many people know it and/or not so many people wish to live in this way. It means it's not Utopian, but not popular and/or not very willing modus vivendi (way of life/mode of living).

"Name a nation that operates based on a true democracy where everyone has a say on major issues and majority rules."

 I am even not sure if there is a full, 100%, true democracy nowadays. For example I know some Europeans who voted before for their favorite candidates. And the candidates promised them "I will give you X, Y, Z"...1-2 years later no X, no Y, no Z...But they're already elected and they can do whatever they want, even the opposite of what they said before the elections. And some voters still call it "democracy". It's a fake democracy! Mostly it's just a disguised or semi-disguised form of oligarchy, kleptocracy...Sad, but true, dear patriot.

"Name a classless society of any note that has ever existed and endured."

 As I learned ago - it was in the first Christian communities.

 The capitalism is organic and it exists?! The death is organic and it exists, too. So does it mean that we don't need to hope that people can fight the death and to support the inventors, who are trying to find medicines against the aging? Not every organic and existing thing/process/phenomenon is a good or the best/optimal one. The same as the capitalism - it's not the best that the human brain can create. There are better ways. Of course it is not the worst thing, too. I think it's just a level of the human evolution. Later it may be replaced with another better level or with another worse level, or it may just exists "till the end of time", i.e. evolutional stagnation. Everything is possible and even the super-computers are not able to predict it, because there are too many factors (some of which unknown) plus some things like the Butterfly effect and it's unpredictable or almost unpredictable.

  And I don't think that the capitalism among good honest people. When you're good, honest and poor, then you can't be a capitalist, because you lack of capital. And when you become a worker/servant/neo-slave of the rich guys, which will take 40%, 50%, 60% or even 99% of your labor, then the capitalism becomes very non-innate to you and you may even kill yourself, because you don't want all your life to spend as an Beta, Gamma or Omega (Alpha is the boss, Beta is the one under the boss, Omega is the last level of the servants/workers/neo-slaves).

"Authoritarians are the biggest obstacles to peace and security."

  Some people think that there is also another big obstacle to peace and security - it's one comparatively young country, but with a very rich war ("military operations") history:


 I don't know really who is the bigger obstacle to peace and security - those authoritarians and "authoritarians" who you mean or USA, or both?...Just want to inform you that there is also another/other point/-s of view about it. Many people think that if there wasn't USA, the world would be more peaceful (I just want to inform you about this point of view honestly), I don't know if they're right or not. So, you also, better not to be so sure who really is the obstacle, the possible/potential obstacle, the co-obstacle, the potential co-obstacle, etc.

 "name one example of a fiefdom in the United States where a single individual or a single organization representing a minority of the population dominates."

  First, I don't know if there are fiefdoms in China. Can you give me some source to read and to see what is this exactly? I know some minorities keep some old ways of life here, but I don't know which case/-s you mean.
 Second -- about the USA, I think a good example are the religious sects - how about the Moon one - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Myung_Moon ? I am not very familiar with this stuff.

 "Thanks to the United States and capitalism you have the Internet."

  The point was that you can use Internet to see that the crimes in the USA are more than in China.
 Now I will answer you if only thanks to the USA and the capitalism I have the Internet? Imagine I am still living not in China, but in that capitalistic East European country, where the unemployment rate is high and where many people with job still can't afford to buy:

-Internet access

 Then how I will have the Internet?!
 You see to have something, you need not only this something to exist somewhere, but also you need more factors/conditions to have it. I am also sure that not everyone in the USA is rich enogh in order to be able to pay his/her electricity, computer, Internet access -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States
 And why do you think that the socialism can't invent Internet? The inventors are everywhere. And as I know -- when someone is more free and don't need to serve 12 hours per day to some capitalist, then he/she may invent more things, because he/she has more free time for thinking and experiments.

"How much Internet and what you can do and say is controlled by the Chinese Government."

  The control is not every time a bad thing. For example here is forbidden to have a gun at home or in your pocket, that's why here we can't see news like those in the US where someone is taking a gun and open fire in some shop, school, bar...Also here you can't find KKK, Skinheads, etc. I am happy about this kind of control. And as I know after the terrorist attacks the control in the USA is more than before. And this is good, too. I am a fan and a supporter of the control. And I think that we need more control. The control is not enough.
 What I can say is controlled? I don't think so. Because till today no one from the government or police told me to speak/not to speak something. May be it's just another myth about China abroad. And still I think the control must be more, because some people speak too bad. For example some Chinese speaks chauvinistic against the foreigners, just because of the foreign persons foreignerness (no matter if the foreigner is me - the philosopher socialist from East Europe or some African uneducated gangster-capitalist in Guangzhou-city. BUT WE'RE NOT THE SAME!). It's against the socialistic spirit of brotherhood and internationalism, that's why I think these chauvinists have to be controlled or what? To leave them to speak more and even to make some terrible thing like the KKK in the USA?! Less control = less safaty. More control = more safety. So, you better love the control too. I have also another example - if you do not control a kid to study, then most of the kids only play and don't self-educate. The control is in many cases a good AND NECESSARY thing. And I insist in this not as a Chinese fan or as a socialist, but as a philosopher anthropologist who knows the real human (semi-animalish, semi-predatoric) nature.

 "I'm not very impressed with statistics that are derived from a government that has been anything but forthcoming historically."

 Then how to make the verification?! I am telling you that here I feel more safe, than in the other countries I was + I am showing you statistics, approved by the American website Wikipedia. Is there another source?

 "I don't consider a country that imprisons citizens for talking ill of their government on the Internet a safe place to live."

  I don't know if it is true. And even IF it is true, I think it is safe, because to talking ill against so successful government that made China a super-power is not something necessary, it's not a basic need of a normal person. The important is that here you can't be killed or crippled by:

- gypsy gang grpups
- skinheads/KKK
- aggressive groups of rappers (and other sub-cultural elements)

 This is important and necessary, not to speak ill against the people who created such a powerful, amazing country as PRC.
 I know some Chinese speak ill against the government, because they can't imagine what will happen with China without it. You know after the collapse of the Socialism in East Europe and Russia how many problems they got:

- high crime rate
- high unemployment rare
- separatism
- ethnic wars and conflicts
- etc.

 All this may happen to China if there is no this CCP government. There is a song - "No CCP -- no new China." And it's a great song. You know how weak and how semi-colonial China was in the 19 century. And now you know that China is probably the 2nd economic power after the USA and the 3rd military power after Russia and USA (or after USA and Russia, it's not that important).

"It's like there is a big Golden Shield surrounding the country.
A shield that has probably taken note of our conversation."

 So what? Our conversation is PUBLIC anyway. Do you care/afraid if someone will read or will read not it?! I think that it's just a honest conversation between two very intelligent men who have different political and economical points of view. 

"Are you affiliated with the Chinese Government authority?"

 No, I am just an ordinary citizen of the EU, who lives in China for a long time, who has property (for living) in China, who is married in China and who has a dream to get Chinese citizenship as soon as possible.

 "'Crime' might be low...of course that depends on what is considered a crime."
 That's right. What I mean, when I am writing/typing/speaking about crimes are the most common ones like: a man kill another innocent man/men on the street, at school, etc., or someone robber you in the night. All these, I think, are recognized as crimes in most of the countries. I am not talking about some specific crimes as "kissing on the beach" (it is a crime in an Arab country), etc.

"You have a distinct advantage in this conversation."

 I like this conversation, but I do not insist to have or to haven't advantage, because my goal is not to write how bad or how good are the US or China, or some another country, I just wanted to say, that it is not right some people (especially some Chinese persons) to think that if you're a foreigner in China, you're here only because you're an idiot, who don't know that for him the only "right places" are Europe or US. The topic was started to show that not everything is money/job and that the love to China may be as a result of history relationships, culture, political believes, food, etc. I am not an anti-USA person, who wants to write against the USA, because I don't like some USA things (like too many freedom for religion sects, existing of dangerous racists like KKK, involving in so many wars, etc.), BUT I also like some USA things (like the advanced science, the useful discoveries, some amazing movies, actors, sportsmen, etc.)

"Countries like China live in a vase.
From the outside, the China vase is brightly decorated and pleasant to look at, topped with beautiful arrangements.
Unlike the fish bowl one cannot see what is in the vase and within the vessel the light of day is controlled and many shadows exist."

 Everyone can came here (I had many American colleagues around, when I was a full-time English teacher and 90% of them were nice and intelligent people) and to compare. As far as I remember the Americans also liked the safety here very much, the big cities (some of them bigger than the American cities/towns where they come from), the Chinese food, etc. I never heard, even when some of them were drunken, someone to be upset, sad, unhappy of something about the Chinese government. It's a big myth that here something is wrong, terrible, etc. Of course there is no problem-less country, every country may have problems, but it is not so big as in your allegory. If you use it about North Korea -- probably it is right, because they control what to show you, but here everyone can come, take pictures, make videos, share them. China is a free place, even more free than I wish (as I said it will be good the chauvinists who speak for example "Die, you foreigner; @$@#$@# your mother!" online to get more control!). The problem of every society is much bigger when there is LACK OF CONTROL, than when there is MORE CONTROL.

"I have nothing against the Chinese people."

 So you're only Anti-Chinese about the Chinese leaders, not at all? Oh, this is better, because I almost get the impression that you may hate all Chinese, which is the same what I am trying to oppose from the beginning - the foreignerness (including the Chineseness) is not a sin.

"Those that I have met in the United States seem very happy to be here.
Especially those with three or more children."

 You're right. One of the main reason Chinese to prefer living abroad is that there thay may have A LOOOOOOT of kids. Well, it's their choice, but I prefer the CHILD-FREE thinking - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childfree. People on Earth are too much and the kids are time consuming. I prefer less kids or no kids, because I would like to spend my life with the science and with the Chinese culture, not being something like a baby-sitter. :)

"Let's pretend that there are no Chinese gangs, any other undesirables, there's no human or drug trafficing or guns as you profess."

 May be there are some, but not so much as from the place where I am coming from. Do you know what is the difference between:

a) You see people use drugs even in the university and in front of the police stations (a country in East Europe)

b) You can't see a single case of drug around you, except some singular case on the news (China)

 The feeling and the % (per cent) is totally different - drugs, guns, organised crimes - everything. Why? Because of the good, quality control over here!

 "I'm guessing there are no skinheads (neo-nazis), no gypsy gangsters, no guns on the street and not so many hooligans in the DPRK or Cuba or Iran or Venezuela or a number of other authoritarian states."

 Also, because of the good control! So now you know how more control may provide mor safety. We don't like to live in a jungle. More control, more order is what we need. And as I said, after the terrorist attacks, the USA also made more control (for example much better control on the airports) and it saves thousands of lives, i.e. it's good.
 By the way I don't think that Iran and Venezuela are 100% authoritarian - they have elections and the people can choose different presidents. I think only the de-facto-monarchies -- Cuba and North Korea -- are authoritarian, but in these countries also not everything is very bad or so bad as some Western people imagine.

"Why do you think that there is more crime in freedom loving countries?"

 Because more freedom = less control. I can illustrate it with an educational-psychological example: if a teacher in class let the students freedom, some of them or many of them do not listen to the lesson - they start to play cards, to use the cell-phones, to read books...BUT if the teacher start to control them in some way, then all the class is quiet and the students may learn better.
 Unlimited freedom is not a value, it's a problem. A person even have to control HIMSELF/HERSELF, because if you just do freely all what you wish, you're getting fat, ill, etc. For example it's a great pleasure now to type you this, BUT I know that after that I must control myself and to make some boring fitness, because I don't want to be 100 kg. or ill. Self-control is also a kind of control and it's a good thing.

"Yeah, I suppose greed doesn't really exist in China.
I think it was outlawed a few years back."

  I don't know if it is outlawed (I don't know all the laws in the world), may be you're joking, but I think it is a good idea! If a society is able to eradicate the greed it will be a more happier society. You know Buddha discovered it - if you're not so greedy/willing/wanting/wishing, then you can't be so unhappy.

"How many do you want?"

You're asking me about how much RMB do I want? According to my business plans (because I am a socialist/communist, but as long as I am living in a world, where the money are still very useful and we need money for almost every services and goods, I am behaving as a moderate and smart capitalist) I think you can be my sponsor (business angel) with 9420 U.S. dollars (it is around 60 000 Chinese yuan or RMB) at the present time. Then I will invest them in a good restaurant - I know some places (towns) where people like to eat foreign food (let's say "hamburgers", but it is not hamburgers, it's just an example, because I want to keep my business idea in secret) and I can earn most probably around 1000 USD per day. This is what I want. As you can see - I am not greedy. I just need a normal primary capital, then I will be able to create my own business (family business, not exploatation business). You can think about it, the offer is serious. If the business is successful, you may get back 300-400 % or even more, depends on - I QUOTE YOU "How many do you want?" :)

 "How exactly does "socialism" ( a government administered society) benefit you as an individual?"

 Provides me safety, culture, etc. Motivates me for comprehensive personality development and provides me cheaper goods/services or even free ones. I miss the time in my ex-Socialist native country when we had -- free education, free hospitals, free libraries and cheap medicines, transportation, electricity...After that Gorbachev sold out the socialism and after the "democracy" + capitalism (or "capitalism") came, we lost all these. Now some people even can't pay the electricity bill. And yesterday I read one local (in that East European country) intelligent wrote how his family may buy shoes, i.e. they're not that poor. Oh, my god !!! And now more and more people started to miss the socialism, even some of the anti-communists, who were so eager (before) to see the "freedom and democracy"...Sure now they have some better things than before - for example the boys don't need to join the army if they don't like to, it's not only bad, but probably the ratio is 10:1 (bad-good) when you compare with the Socialistic period/era/regime (no matter how you/they call it). And these are the people who still remember the time and can COMPARE. The young generation mostly can't imagine and even don't believe it, so for them there is no real "informed choice" and most of them only choose something like - capitalism and/or nationalism, ultra-nationalism, pro-Americanism or anti-Americanism...very hard, up to impossible for them to choose something like Socialism/Communism, because for them it's just a myth, an utopia...the same as you - they never experienced it.

"From what I've read in your posts it seems that the only thing it provides you is some solace that everyone, except for government officials and elites, are equally poor and equally robbed of any opportunity to improve their circumstances.
Kinda like being a kept animal...not interested."

 You can't get it, because you never experienced it. I will show you a picture of when I was young and I lived in a true socialism (some call it "STATE CAPITALISM" or "Partycracy"/"Partocracy"):

-free hospitals, free school and university, free libraries
-very cheap transportation -- for example 1 salary = 6000 bus tickets (now 1 salary = 700 bus tickets)
-cheap food (that time people ate meat daily or almost daily, now someone can affotd only bread and some onion or something like that)
-work for everybody (now - high unemployment rate and some intelligent people - doctors, engineers, historians, etc. should "work" as ... I can't find the English word for those who collect trash from the trash bins and then sell it for recicling? You know what I mean? I found the word HOBO, but I am not sure if it covers the meaning of that "job", when you search for empty bottles or dirty paper and then you sell them for some little money)
-very low crime rate, no drugs
-no porn
-not so many prostitutes
-people worked only 6-8 hours and they could afford to go 1-2 times on vacations (mountains, seaside, abroad), now someone work 12 hours and still can't buy meat to eat or good shoes...

 So, who is so crazy to like the situation over there now? Only the very hard liners (very hard anti-comminists), young generation who don't know well how it was, foreigners like you, who also didn't live even a single minute in such a heavenly place, the very rich capitalists, who are able to buy whatever they want... This is the reality, I think.
A fan of science, philosophy and so on. :)


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The last part for this week
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2012, 03:15:35 AM »

The last part for this week

"Then you agree that what you perceive as enslavement is not the fault of capitalism but the fault of the individual."

  The capitalism, the science, the slavery -- all these are related to the individuals, the mankind make them. 

"Is enslavement by the state more desirable?"

 Much better, because they you are dependable only of the state. In the capitalistic state, when you're just one of the workers (the majority of the population) you have more level to be dependable of - the state, the owner of the company, the managers... You like freedom, right? Then why (if you're not almost on the top of the capitalistic pyramid) you will prefer to have not only one, but many bosses? If you obey only the state, then you're Beta and the state is Alpha, i.e. you and the others are 2, the state is 1. BUT if you're just a member of a capitalistic state and you're not one of the main capitalists, then you are like Omega (the lowest level of the pyramid), because: State = 1, the owner of the company you work for = 2, your manager = 3, you = 4. Which is better for a worker/servant to be 2 (second) or to be 4 (forth) ?

"consumerism is a choice"

 I told you it's hard to make a true, informed choice, if it brain-wash you from the early age. The choice is only formal. For example everyone speaks to you that you must have a car, no car = looser, you watch car ads 24/7 (non-stop)...and at the end is your choice real choice or just a zombie-choice? In my understanding the choice and the free will is not that simple as many people can imagine. The brain is not that perfect to be able to collect all the necessary information and to make the right choices.

 I can't watch your videos, but I want to tell you that your freedom is not so big as you imagine. I can suggest you a list of cases of police brutality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_police_brutality
 And yes, you have a lot of protests over there, but also a lot of police brutality against them. So what's the benefit if you are "so free" to protest? You go and protest and the policemen beat you! It's sounds masochistic to me. Look at this:

32 Pictures Of Police Brutality From Occupy Wall Street Protests

Excuse me, but it looks like some police state over there. And many people think that it's very free. Sounds like a mantra, but not like a real freedom.

"I don't want you to get in any trouble, but I cannot allow an authoritarian regime to restrict my ability to exercise the freedom of speech and discourse that I enjoy in the United States."

 I enjoy the same things in China. By the way if you have so strong censorship in the US, why do you still think that there is very free the speech: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_United_States Did you know about all these cases of censorship in the USA or it's a new information for you?
 "With all due respect, there is clearly an attempt to persuade and influence consumerism, but if you want to discuss real behavior modeling look to authoritarian regimes like China. "

  I don't think that in China is an authoritarian regime, because China got many different presidents and they're not grandfather-father-son like these in North Korea or brother-brother as these in Cuba. Also, China got People's congress and a few political parties. I don't know how the behavior is modeling in China, if there are so different Chinese people, with different behavior. I think it's just another myth about China. And about the consumerism I really think so: "Because if 24/7 the TV, Internet websites, radio, etc. brain-washing you to buy this and that, it's not so free. It's a sort of behavior modeling from the early age. And when the kid grow up, it is not sure is he/she is able to choose something different, to overcome the cosumeristic models and thinking."

 "In free societies like the United States there are competing messages, each attempting to convince the consumer that their product has merit and deserves their attention."

 There are too many commercial messages not only in the US and all of them are attempting to convince you to consume and to take more and more credits. The result as you know is that the US are most indebted country in the world, please read and think about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

 The American debt according to that article is USD 15,570,789,000,000... I am even not able to imagine this amount of money, for example how many sq. m. you need to collect them? How many ships are able to carry them...lack of fantasy... This is the result of the consumerism - credits, credits...and then what? Are the US a future Greece? Some people even ask - why the Greek debt is such a big problem and the American is not? I think the American debt is a big problem and as I know this opinion is shared by some Americans as well.  Who is number 2? The UK - the main forefather of the USA and also a capitalistic country. And you still think that the consumerism making you to live on debts is a good thing?

"What free societies don't have are 're-education camps' like they do in China and other authoritarian states."

  The re-education is something good when the new education is better than the old one. As I know in many jails in the world the goal is not only to punish the bad guy, but also to re-educate him and to make him more clever, more skillful than before, to create a new, useful member of the society. And China, as I proved already is not an authoritarian state.

"Pedophilia involves a child that all societies that value life have an obligation to protect."

 Consumerism involves children, teenagers, adults and elderly people that all societies that value life have an obligation to protect, not to get in debts like Greece, USA, UK, etc.

"None of which require living in China."

 For me it is like a self-requirement, because I love Chinese culture, history, food, political system, martial arts, etc.
I do not insist and I do not invite the other foreigners to come living here. I just wanted to show (mostly to the Chinese like that Chinese journalist) that some of the foreigners in China are here, not because we can't find jobs in Europe or America, but because we love/like China very much. It's not an ad or a propaganda. It's just an opinion that I want to spread around, because I don't want some Chinese to think that people like me are just some stupid and/or crazy people who live in China, just because they can't find jobs in Europe or USA. I am not crazy and I am not stupid, I just like and love China, so I am here. It's my childhood dream to be in China and to become a Chinese citizen. All this doesn't mean that I want to insult Europe or America. I just prefer/love/like here more.

 "I guessed shared misery does have that advantage."

 The consumerism also leads to misery. Greece is a good example. And many countries may get the same problem, as you know - Spain, Portugal, Italy...and the US as I wrote above.

 "Not certain if the same comradery existed in Chinese concentration camps since they were never liberated by the freedom-loving nations."

 Where do you got this information?! I think there are no concentration camps in China. But I know about some US camps like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp camp, where some bad things happened and may be it will be very close to your understanding of the concentration camps, some guys there are very "concentrated" by the "freedom-loving" people...

 So, my very good idea is - please, provide me at least one Wikipedia link to these camps to learn if they really exist as you think. Wikipedia is an American "free" encyclopedia, which uses many science sources, so I think you can use it, or for example - Britannica - also a western source. As a philosopher I have to be careful and skeptic about all these informations like yours that there are some concentration camps in China. Prove it with some science source, otherwise I will think that it is just another China myth.
 Give me something like this: I am telling you that US used Depleted uranium which was very bad for the health of the people in Iraq, Yugoslavia and for the US soldiers too and AT ONCE I have the link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium . Then you know my information is true and in the same time you can learn more about some "tools" of the "democratization". Another poison of the "freedom loving" nation used in Vietnam is this one Agent Orange - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange

 And in fact many of the new "freedom loving" countries (some people call them "the new democracies") and not so free, because they're just ... you choose:


  The freedom there is an illusion, because in fact the big boss for them is USA and/or NATO and/or EU. Before - USSR, now - USA and/or NATO and/or EU. What's the difference? Is it a liberation? It's not. It was just a re-enslavement.

"I guess that explains why people who embrace servitude imposed by the state refer to each other as comrades. "

 And I guess that explains why people who embrace servitude imposed by the state + the local capitalist + his manager refer to each other as:

- Dude
- Bitch
- Nigga
- Fag
- Hey you
- Etc.

 What I mean the word "comrade" is much moral and better than all the Anglo-American words mentioned above. I am not a Christian, but I like some Bible wisdoms like this one - "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." It mean -- at first you have to know how bad words are using the people around you to address each other and then you have to be upset of the simple "comrade" word. For example I prefer to be a comrade, not just "dude" or "Yo, man!"...

 "The only people who are prosperous without engaging in the free exchange of some form of consideration in the form of labor, talent, wealth or time for goods or services are thieves, thugs and authoritarians."

 But the engaging of free exchange is not consumerism...Do you know what? I think you have totally different understanding of the consumerism. So, first you say what is your understanding of this word, then I, and then we'll see if we really talk about one and the same think. I said from the beginning that I am against the greedy consumerism, not against the simple forms of buy, sell, exchange...

"I guess a person like the Dalai Lama might be an exception, but he too is a Marxist."

I think at first he is a theocrat + lamaist. Something like the Iran's ayatollahs. These (the Dalai and the ayatollahs) are all non-Marxists, non-Engelsists, non-Leninists and Non-Maoists.
"And yet you choose to focus on the unhealthy trees in the capitalist forest and the content trees in the Chinese forest without looking at and comparing the two forests from a broader perspective."

  Who are the healthiest trees - the US and the UK with their giant debts? I don't think it's healthy. For me it looks like a pre-crisis situation. For example you own me 100, then you own me 1000, then -- 100 000 000...is it healthy? The health will be when you have 0 debt and when you can save some money and to expand your business. About the Chinese forest - as you can see their debt is not so high. Today they even cuts down the oil prices and they have positive economic growth every year. For many people China looks more healthier than many capitalistic countries - from Greece to USA. And this is one of the reason why more and more foreigners are coming here and trying to work, make business, even to settle down. But as I said, my goal is not to compare China and USA. I started this topic only to show the Chinese who don't know well the foreigners, that sometimes a person like me can be here, not because he CAN'T find job in Europe/USA, but because he DOESN'T WANT to search for jobs there, but here, because he is a Chinese fan. And that's all. Am answering you only, because you started to ask, oppose, etc., which is not so bad, because in this way I can create a lot of unique content for our forums, but I just don't want you to get me wrong - I am not willing to write so much about your problems there or to make explain you how good is here. I prefer, if it is possible, to talk more about some possible future businesses like restaurants, amusement parks, carbonated drinks and so on.

"Your quote above is a fundamental distinction between those who embrace freedom for all and people like you that advocate for relying on the benevolence of a central authority. "

  Not so simple. Yes, I think it's better to obey only the state/country, not to obey:

-local capitalist
-capitalist's managers

 BUT as you (probably) know the FINAL goal of every communist is the stateless and moneyless future of the mankind. THIS WOULD BE GREAT:

"Stateless communism, also known as pure communism, is the post-capitalist stage of society which Karl Marx predicted would inevitably result from the development of the productive forces. Stateless communism is closely related and connected to world communism." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_communism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_3.0_Unported_License

 This is my ideal. The benevolence to the country is (I wish!) just a temporal stage in the human history and much better than to have not only this country-dependance, but also: boss-dependance, managers-dependance, etc.

"People who support a central authority have a general disdain for their fellow man."

 Every person has own individual psychology. Also -- how about this that if you obey not only the country, but also your boss and the managers, you can get a victim of the internal competition in your factory/company/shop...you know the capitalism makes people to compete more and more, and some guys are making dirty tricks to you...this is the real disdain of the fellows and this is the end of the comradeship/brotherhood.


 Hey, I got tired. :( At first I was glad to write so much and to create so many unique content, but I found out that this is very time-consuming and I have no time to deal with my other duties: sport, woman, SEO for my websites, translations online, chatting with friends, shopping some food, etc. The problem is you're very talkative and I am too talkative. So, as I said - the control (plus the self-control) is an important thing for the live. So, according to my recent self-control plan, I will answer you only once per week (I hope I will remember it)...The rest of your topic I will answer next week. So, if you can, write less :D and wait me until I answer you. Because today/tonight probably I spent around 5 hours to type you..."It's madness" :D and I should limit it.
 Best wishes for money, love, health and free time!
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2012, 03:06:16 AM »
 From another similar one:

"exchangeman said he was from Europe. I wonder what country, perhaps a communist, then went to China, communist. "

Doesn't matter what country. And yes, I am a socialist/communist. I wish:

- no money
- justice
- no exploitation
- development
- progress

The socialism/communism is something good, not evil as you think.

"You will never change his mind."

Why to change my mind?! You want to control my mind?! Where is your so called PLURALISM and FREEDOM OF THINKING?!

"He hasn't experienced the freedom of speech and rights to vote who we want to head his country. "

Hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I lived in this many years, because the socialism collapsed there many years ago. The freedom of speech brings:

a) NOTHING. You speak, speak, speak, but the rich guys are doing the same! No result of your SPEAKING!

b) PROBLEMS. Sometimes you speak and then the rich and/or powerful man/men is sending people to beat/kill you. And also - police may beat you. I posted above pictures of policemen beating people above. So what? You speak - they beat you! So "free"! LOL, ROFL, etc.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

c) Vote? HAHA! Only the rich parties, with a MONEY support may make a good ad and to win, the poor onese are even not known of the majority of the voters. WHY IN THE USA YOU HAVE ONLY 2 PARTY WINNERS?! DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICAN?! WHAT DOES IT MEAN?! AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT IS THE CHANCE OF THE POOR PARTIES TO WIN IN THE USA OR ABROAD? 0, ISN'T IT!

"People like exchangeman can't see they are brainwashed"

I am not brain-washed, because I lived in 3 different political systems and I learned PHILOSPHY - I am familiar with all of the political and philosophical, and religious points of view and I can make a FREE CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You don't know me AT ALL, so better - SHUT UP!

"psychologically or otherwise"


"which can be seen as subverting an individual's sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making."


"Sorry exchangeman I don't agree with you as we have freedom of speech and make our own decisions in the west."


"I have heard a wonderful place to visit but a lot of corruption and violence there."

-guns on the street/bars/universities

SO, JUST SHUT UP, YOU WHO DON'T KNOW EVEN A PIECE OF ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Plus pur old friend, already well-known to us:

I am answering you now, because I have to write more posts here (I am honest about our forum post exchange with this forum) and, because this time your post is shorter:

1) "Since he is no longer able to continue one of the most popular diversions of the Left "

Are you dreaming?! I said I will answer you next week. But now I HAVE TO, because a member of nicetomeet.proboards.com already posted 60 posts in our forum and I have to give back the number of the posts!
No diversions here.

2) Don't speak common words, answer me about the things I mentioned above, especially I am interested about the links from Wikipedia.




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 :( :(The administrator sent me a message, that she deleted MSL's account there. My answer to her:

They started to attack China and MSL (exchangeman) too much. He was, as we can see, very friendly. You had to moderate better your forum and to stop them on time, but you didn't!  It's not so friendly. It's not friendly AT ALL! And don't tell me what to delete here, it's not your forum! You may delete only in your forum there! And stop insult China, Chinese government and our friend. You deleted his posts? HEHE, that's your freedom of speech, huh!

 Btw, I saw she didn't deleted all your posts only some parts of them, but who cares? Let it be. I just don't want someone from Australia to tell me what I have to do in my own forum.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 04:38:26 AM by SEO »
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Not a big deal. I am able to post here more and more posts and I really doubt if we need users. Only I am able to full all this forum with different kind of posts:

-Bulgarian, Russian, Chinese, English and some other languages...

 One user/member less here? Not big deal. Let's imagine here we can post 50 000 posts. Is it important if these 50 000 posts are posted by her or by me? Also I am a clever man - philosopher (Master's degree), I know a lot about SEO, science, sport and so on, so I am able to create and post almost all the posts of this forum. If there are some people like here - ok, welcome! If there are not - what's the problem?! I will write and post and the final result will be one and the same - 100%  full forum of posts. So, it's okay. I don't want sad faces  -- :( -- anymore.
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After deleting the membership of the profile, there are no more links to our websites in his signature. That's why, in fair, reciprocal, I will delete her link to her forum, but I am not going to delete her membership/account, according to our forum/community rules, which everyone accepts when register:

"The staff and the owner of this forum reserve the right to remove objectionable content, within a reasonable time frame, if they determine that removal is necessary."

 I, as an important part of the staff here, will remove the link of her forum, because I determine it that removal is necessary. I am not going to remove her membership, because I determine it is not objectionable and the removal is not necessary.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 03:00:55 PM by SEO »
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