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Author Topic: About the so called 'Wow! signal'  (Read 1367 times)

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About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« on: April 23, 2016, 12:31:22 AM »

Wow! signal


We mentioned about this Wow! signal already in Chinese and in Russian. I don't know why do we missed to post about it in English and here I'm going to fix this, because today I read interesting news about it.

1. Hydrogen Clouds from Comets 266/P Christensen and P/2008 Y2 (Gibbs) are Candidates for the Source of the 1977 “WOW” Signal
Posted on January 1, 2016 by Prof. Antonio Paris
http://planetary-science.org/hydrogen-clouds-from-comets-266p-christensen-and-p2008-y2-gibbs-are-candidates-for-the-source-of-the-1977-wow-signal/

2. The Wow! Signal Theory Experiment
https://www.gofundme.com/wow-experiment

3. And for all this and more in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal
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mojo

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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2016, 11:39:00 PM »
Just read about the radio telescope initiative yesterday in an attempt to explain the WOW signal. He has a point that could well prove to be the answer.

One thing is for certain, you have to try new things no one has done before if you are to ever explain what no one understands. The fact that the WOW signal has only occurred once and was never repeated tends to lend credit to a one time event.

Another that it was pretty much centered in the hydrogen emission band indicates that it could be strongly associated with hydrogen rather than an intelligent signal. In order to have a strong signal it would normally tell you the event is close rather than extended distances, given that emissions have to obey the physical laws of the Inverse Square Law. The strength of the signal is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between source and reception. 

The meaning in that statement is that if it came from some distance star it would in all likelihood require a civilization capable of  harnessing a star's energy output to get a signal that strong to arrive here.
When you put down the good things you ought to have done, and leave out the bad ones you did do — well, that’s Memoirs. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2016, 03:38:50 AM »
I like that he has this good idea and it may help to know more about it. This is the real science!
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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2016, 03:43:56 AM »
 Even it's a wrong hypothesis, it's still good science and methodology. I do support this experiment. Verification and falsifiability (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability)... and one day the truth will be found. 8)
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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 12:14:21 AM »
Quote from:  MSL
  Even it's a wrong hypothesis, it's still good science and methodology. I do support this experiment.

This is how science works. It is the repeatable, provable by anyone, that advances science. Anyone can make a guess or a hypothesis but  it is the ability for someone else, somewhere else, to do or see the same thing under the same circumstances, that changes something from guess work to advancing the way we understand our universe to work.

That means bad science as well as hunches are all thrown in there with the properly researched. Only the provable will eventually rise to the top as accepted. It might take hours, days, years, or in rare cases centuries to prove and verify.

We are still looking for evidence of Dyson Spheres. Put forth by Freeman Dyson, the idea that a civilization is held back by it's ability to obtain, alter, or comsume energy. That an advanced race at some point should attempt to capture the energy output of their star. To an observer from a distance, it would either look like a dimming of the star's light output all the way up to a star disappearing in the visual light emitting spectrum but would still be there in the infrared.

In the latter case, such an example would be detectable by us for a long distance, as long as we could see the star in a telescope. In the former case, we are now reaching the ability to detect this as we search for exoplanets with space telescopes. The degree of resolution to do this is simply astounding in the terms of instrument sensitivity.
When you put down the good things you ought to have done, and leave out the bad ones you did do — well, that’s Memoirs. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2016, 06:30:57 PM »
 My critique of that idea is that an advanced race (civilization) may have many other ways of using energy or creating energy. Also, it's possible, an advanced race to be very eco-oriented and to live in a low-energy lifestyle.
 Conclusion: it's possible, but not necessary/not a must/not 100% sure (that "an advanced race at some point should attempt to capture the energy output of their star").
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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2016, 10:00:27 PM »
Yeah!
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MSL

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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 12:00:46 AM »
My critique of that idea is that an advanced race (civilization) may have many other ways of using energy or creating energy. Also, it's possible, an advanced race to be very eco-oriented and to live in a low-energy lifestyle.
 Conclusion: it's possible, but not necessary/not a must/not 100% sure (that "an advanced race at some point should attempt to capture the energy output of their star").

I thought more about it during my long walk tonight. Well, I'll add this: in many fields the development of the science provides more efficiency for less energy. Examples: energy saving bulbs, energy saving lamps, etc.
So, it's quite possible certain very developed civilizations to use less energy (or even something else, instead of energy. :P Maybe this is too futuristic, but...). I think this makes a lot of sense.
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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2016, 03:40:25 AM »
The musings are quite limited in nature about power consumption, admittedly. There are however some standards and the fact that we are talking alien, in which all bets are off as to what is/would be there. In this sort of topic, 'what if's' has a field day. It all comes down to some simple assumptions. .

► One is that the physical laws work the same everywhere within our universe.

► Provided they do then entropy is a real event to deal with. Everything eventually descends in energy level requiring replacement/renewal.

► We only know of one place life and even more importantly intelligent life exists. It's the only model we have, we know works. All outside it is speculation.

► We seek to discover and ultimately communicate in some manner with alien life. Can't do that with an intelligent mushroom. They have to advance to communicate.
Besides answering the question of "Are we alone in the universe?" it is the driver behind such projects as SETI, Voyager, and the Pioneer spacecrafts.

► As civilization advances technology wise, our model shows it requires ever more energy/resources to sustain it. History seems to affirm that.

► Energy consumption both provides heat releases as well as the use of resources that are limited as non-renewable. Either you find a replacement or decline in level of tech/advances.

► At some point you reach a plateau, where all available energy isn't enough to sustain the present level. This is where the Dyson Sphere is the conjecture of necessity.
When you put down the good things you ought to have done, and leave out the bad ones you did do — well, that’s Memoirs. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2016, 04:15:21 AM »
It's interesting to think and discuss more about it (at least when I have time as now :) )... So... Let's see it from this angle: if we're in the Stone age, but we're enough intelligent (like Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble, but without The Great Gazoo ;D) and we're thinking about the very developed alien civilizations from our Stone age perspective. It'll be (for most of us, probably) obvious that "at some point you reach a plateau, where all available STONES isn't enough to sustain the present level." and it'll sound pretty logical and natural for most of the community. The Stone Age ended not because there were no more stones, it ended, because of the new levels of the development.
 So, what I mean is that the 'energy problem' obviously is something serious, but what if it's only from the nowadays paradigm? Let's compare how many electricity and time used the first computers to calculate something and how many needs now an average computer (even not talking about the supercomputers). Or the LED lamps compared with the ordinary bulb lamps.
 The physical laws work (very probably) the same everywhere. And when a science is better it allows to use these laws better. A recent energy record proves it: a new solar cell configuration (developed by engineers at the University of New South Wales) has pushed sunlight-to-electricity conversion efficiency to 34.5%! It's a new world record for unfocused sunlight and nudging closer to the theoretical limits for such a device. :) 8) (Source: http://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/milestone-solar-cell-efficiency-unsw-engineers). Well, now just imagine that theoretical very high level, when the science not just use the laws, but also 'tricks', 'manipulates' them somehow (and/or when discovers new laws, that we never thought about).
 One more analogy -- if someone lives in a society, where the main source of energy are the windmills, he/she will hardly imagine that it's possible to receive atom energy or solar energy, at least.
 My conclusion again: I imagine that really very high-tech races will have another way to use energy than their suns (if they really need so much energy). 
A fan of science, philosophy and so on. :)

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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2016, 05:57:10 AM »
There's another point of speculation that falls in with your stones analogy. But availability of stones was never the issue. Energy and labor required to convert the stones into usable items that lasted was. Even the best materials in use at the time, which were predominately flint, obsidian, for spear, knife, hand axe, and scraper tools, dulled. Requiring rechipping to sharpen. Everytime you rechip the edge, you take the chance of destroying the item. Actually making such a tool was likely a several days job provided you had the materials at hand.

Bronze was an advancement that much like electricity of our own time, changed forever civilization. Mainly because it was slightly more durable than stone, you could sharpen it without fear of destroying it in the process, and it could be molded into needed forms much easier than stone could be worked. The hold back on steel was reaching the needed temperatures to actually work steel. It was the great tech barrier of the time. A standard fire can't reach the heat needed to make steel molten.

There has to be the assumption that every 10 or more generations there comes along an Einstein.  Our history seems to say this, with a role call of brilliant minds forever changing the future once the value of the discoveries were recognized. Often that value was delayed for other purposes but eventually even delay can not prevent recognition; such as Galileo. I would tend to believe without proof, that the mutation factor that creates these incredibly creative people is not just genetics or we would have long ago at some point in history have discovered this and then had a civilization that based it's ideas of proper morals and usefulness to justify forcing the mating to produce such. One thing the earth has that seems unusual is radioactives in abundance. Not to mention the passage of cosmic rays as well as the occasional solar disruptions that reach the earth even through the Van Allen belts at the poles. Without the Van Allen belts and the Ozone layer earth would never had had a chance to develop life and sustain it. For much of the same reasons I tend to think that any life, not just intelligent life will never be found near the galactic core of any galaxy. The stars are too close to each other and one going nova would sterilize all in the surrounding neighborhood. What life we do find is highly likely to be in the outer fringes through to the middle of the arms, in spiral galaxies and unlikely to form in clusters due to the higher chances of unruly neighbor stars in such a formation, because the dimensional aspect. In spirals they tend to be flat and linear but in clusters, they have the chance to be anywhere nearby. The outer fringes of clusters being the exception, where stars are again not as densely packed.

Back on topic, even with the stone age to bronze age, it was a tech advance requiring a higher energy in order to advance. Bronze required heat as well as the knowledge to mix tin and copper. As long as trees were near by, bronze could be created. But when all the trees in an area were cut, it was either move to find more wood or have the materials brought to them. Especially for early civilizations this proved problematic. Not only did you have to have a steady flow of food coming in but of raw materials as well. Those civilizations quickly reached a point where the raw materials were no longer close by cities. If history is correct, many of the early civilizations died for the lack of materials and energy to keep the level of civilization maintained. This is how important energy is and what the results is without it increasing to maintain the current level, which always demands more as the city/civilization grows in population, all wanting their part individually.

It doesn't seem to much matter what the level is technology wise. If our growth and resource demand is typical of any civilization, then no matter what is invented, there will always come a plateau. A point where more and more people demand the same level of comfort and convergence as the haves. Population expansion will consume it all, given time.
When you put down the good things you ought to have done, and leave out the bad ones you did do — well, that’s Memoirs. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2016, 06:00:05 AM »
It's really interesting to read this during drinking a good morning tea! :) I really mean it! Adorable posts.
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Re: About the so called 'Wow! signal'
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2016, 01:43:04 PM »
Here is something to help about the opposition "Developed races need and use more energy!" (Mojo) <---> "No, the developed races are very smart and use less or no energy!" (MSL).

I think the keyword(-s) here is/are Energy intensity (Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_intensity)

Now look at this carefully. I think it's understandable and very interesting for students, professors and average people: By The original uploader was Petercorless at English Wikipedia - Transferred from en.wikipedia to Commons by Jalo using CommonsHelper., Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=5384557

Do you get it? The least developed from all those on the graph (Bangladesh) has low productivity + highly energy efficient. The most developed (USA) has the opposite: highly productive + energy inefficient. Following this logic, a very-very-very developed race will be very-very-very highly productive + very very very energy inefficient.

About the alternative sources of energy (the theory that, if a race is really-really-really developed it doesn't need so 'primitive' ways of collecting energy from suns/stars, because they can use other ways/sources), some decades ago the mankind couldn't imagine that there is energy in the 'nothing' (vacuum), but nowadays we know there is vacuum energy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_energy.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2016, 01:53:25 PM by Non-SEO »
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